Heroes and Villains
I shared this earlier today on Twitter in response to a popular post on Jesus Needs New PR that features a video of Mark Driscoll giving his manly man = Godly man mantra:
@PastorMark irritates me. This is exactly why.
That tweet was followed by six or seven replies from others reminding me that Mark is my brother (I know, so is Jerry Falwell), that Mark effectively communicates the Gospel, and other assorted tweets about the awesomeness that is Mark Driscoll. Then I tweeted this:
Lesson from Twitter: Generally speaking it’s ok to disagree w/ Bell, ok to totally dislike Olsteen, NOT ok to have an issue w/Driscoll.
I think that assessment is fairly true. I’ve never pretended to be a fan of Mark Driscoll, and I doubt I ever will be. There are plenty of other high-profile pastors that I disagree with, like Joel Olsteen, yet no one runs to his defense or reminds me that he’s my brother (which he is, I think). Not to mention the fact that I have read countless blog posts and tweets warning against the evils of Rob Bell (whom I happen to love). Why is that?
Is it ok to only disagree with certain pastors? I even had someone once suggest that I should not disagree with any pastors… which is ridiculous, of course. My question is: what makes one pastor fair game and not another?
Do you think we’ve created Christian heroes and villains?
P.S. Jesse suggested that my photo header looked like some sort of twisted, modern day Hebrews 11 hall of fame. I love it!
Hmm, Who's Mark Driscoll? Jerry Falwell? Bell? Joel Olsteen? LOL No need to explain – I don't watch any of em' :-)
However, I understand your story which is good, I don't understand the question. Maybe after more sleep & using a dictionary I will. :-) Good to be back reading your blogs!
i've often pondered this very thing…but then again, Driscoll often makes me throw up in my mouth…
::hugs::
I should have added Pat Robertson too. He qualifies.
Glad you're back too. Hope you're well!
driscoll and his antagonistic followers drive me bonkers!
they're more passionate about him than Jesus
We often make heroes and villains. I think the bigger problem is not the disagreement but rather the mocking tones that are used by those who dislike the positions of someone like Mark Driscoll or Joel Osteen.
Let's look at a sample of the comments toward Pastor Mark from Matt's site:
“He can actually f*ck off if he wants to call men who don’t wanna take part or encourage that kind of activity fat and lazy.”
“His ego alone could kick my ass. And he looks like woodchuck.”
“I know I am not the only person waiting for the fall of Pastor Driscoll.”
“Driscoll is ignorant.”
“unshaven, ill-dressed slob”
“Mark Driscoll is a douche-canoe”
“The dude is just so arrogant, I just feel the need to bring him down a bit.”
That's pretty tame compared to the comments I've seen regarding Driscoll on other sites from people identifying themselves as Christians. The majority of comments on Matt's page were bashing Driscoll. Honestly, that's the reason I didn't bother to read the comments until your posting…I believed it would be a bunch of people who generally have a more liberal leaning theology pounding away on Driscoll and I didn't feel like seeing another round of “let's bash Driscoll and anyone who defends him!”
I would just ask you this…why is OK for you to have an issue with Driscoll but not OK for people to have an issue with you because you have an issue with Driscoll?
Yeah, it's pretty interesting to me the way that works too. I don't like it at all. It must just be that Driscoll has more fans on twitter or are more loyal to him. Which is weird in itself that they have their loyalty to him so much that they need to defend him on twitter. I mean not a lot of people defend McClaren either, and he's pretty radical.
It goes both ways for sure. I've seen just as bad in other places about Bell. It's all craziness. I think we can disagree with each other (and that includes Driscoll et al) without acting nuts. And douch-canoe? Really? Who says crap like that!? Yuck.
They are people! I'm commanded to love them….doesn't say nuthin about having to LIKE them :D. I'm not particularly fond of any of these mentioned and happen to think our pastor at home could preach them out of the building, but I'm guessing there are lots who are fond of THEIR pastors and their form of communication.
We create them….we tear them down…..it's the American way.
I happen to think Perry Noble is fan-freaking-tastic, but many disagree….oh well….can't please em all. As our pastor once told me, “if you're looking for a pastor who you'll always agree with, you'll always be looking.” :-)….love that line!
Oh, and if you attend Liberty University, as I do, it's never a good idea to mention your (or my) disdain for anyone carrying the name Falwell. :D
Oh, and for your question… they can disagree with me all they want. That's fine. Lord knows I disagree with plenty of other folks. I just think that it raises an interesting question.
Some of them do but I wouldn't limit that to just Driscoll. Lots of “celebrity” pastors have followers that are just as passionate. In all of those cases I think that it can get really dangerous really fast.
McClaren tends to open an entirely different can of worms ;)
I think the level of “disagreement” is at the heart of the issue. In the comments section of Matt's post are comments saying Driscoll should “f**k off”, calling him a “douche”, seemingly hoping that he falls like some other Pastors have sexually and another saying that what Driscoll said in that little video snippet would allow some men to justify beating on women and children. This is not the first time I have seen Driscoll derided in such a manner. It often gets nasty and such nastiness comes from other Christ followers.
I don't always agree with Driscoll. I thought his characterization of 'The Shack' as a heresy was rather silly but I'm not about to tee off on the guy and start calling him all sorts of names. Driscoll has been preaching at Mars Hill since it was founded which is about 14 years. People are quick to judge the man based upon mere of what they've seen and heard from him.
I'm not lumping you in with those who get nasty Nicole. I've seen your reaction to several things Driscoll has said and while your disagreement is strong, it's never been nasty.
I just think that whether a disagreement is with Driscoll or Brian McLaren (I could go on all day about his theological viewpoints) it should be handled with some respect. Disagreement, even strong disagreement is a very good thing. But we'll get nowhere if make it personal.
Your pastor sounds very wise.
Totally agree. The nastiness is uncalled for. Thank you for mentioning that I steer clear of the nasty personal comments. Although, I can be somewhat snarky and sarcastic from time to time ;)
I tend to have an issue with any Pastor who preaches that their teachings are the only right teachings, or who seem to “water down” the teachings of the Bible to a “feel good only” type of gospel. When I first became a Christian my Pastor told me that it was my responsibility to read the Bible and learn from it and not to just take what he says about it as the only teachings that I receive. He told me that their might be times that I might disagree with him, or another preacher, that I should not just follow blindly, but learn the word of God and question things. I fear that some people do follow certain preachers blindly; their main focus is no longer Jesus but the preacher, and in worst case scenarios if the preacher falls from grace then the people are left totally blind-sided and so many seriously damaged… I've seen it first-hand on a smaller scale, but very damaging none-the-less.
So, as to answer your question Nicole, we should be free to question/disagree with any pastor. We should never follow blindly. We all need to study the word for ourselves in addition to going to church. The pastors are learned men and women. They should never be threatened by questions from people about their sermons, etc but should welcome discussions about disagreements. And sometimes in the end, we all might just have to agree to disagree on various issues.
Here's a thought for you and Jason Wert since you mentioned MPT's commenters… do you think that people try to be extra “edgy” in their comments because it's MPT's blog? Are they trying to fit in? Just a thought…
Hey I'm all about the sarcasm. It's one of my best traits. :)
I totally agree. Following a preacher blindly because he has authority, or worse yet because he has cool clothes and a Moleskin notebook, is a very bad idea.
Please stop using that term, even in quotation marks. It gives me a mental image I dislike.
This is very true, but just making a point! I'm not a huge fan of either of them, but I don't get all the hate from people or defending people that are supposed to be following a great command of love.
I said I'd wait until after work, but anyway… :)
I think a big part of it is that many people identify with their “heroes”, perhaps too much. Their beliefs are usually aligned with that of their hero.
So if someone criticises their hero, they take the criticism as a personal attack on their beliefs or even as a personal attack against themselves.
By extension, someone who doesn't agree with their hero must be a villain, so becomes a target for criticism. They look for the villains to “fail” by contradicting the hero (or *really* FAIL), then go for the jugular.
In this kind of black and white thinking, the hero can do no wrong, and the villain can do no right. Those who agree with the hero are comrades, and those who agree with the villain are evil henchmen.
And so the cycle continues.
I'm not sure that any pastor should be “fair game” like this.
Life isn't that simple. The Bible isn't even that simple. King David had big successes, and big failures. Yet he was called “a man after God's own heart”.
Pastors can be amazing, and also amazingly wrong. Not every word that falls from the mouth of Piper/Driscoll/Osteen/Bell/Pastor of the moment is manna from heaven, and we shouldn't treat it like it is. We need to be open to the idea that they can be wrong, and mistaken; they're human.
I think there's only One that should be our hero.
It almost reminds me of politics, doesn't it? This is an excellent comment by the way! Hope you've been well. :)
Here's my take:
Francis Chan inspires me, because he is only ever talking about Jesus. Joel Osteen saddens and sickens me because I think he leads people to heartache. Rob Bell is a natty dresser. Mark Driscoll has good and reformed theology at heart, but he is too sold on his own opinions about side issues and comes across as arrogant. Benny Hinn weirds me out. And I loved the one book of John Piper's that I read (Desiring God), but his tweets were just bizarre. It's good that he's taking a little hiatus.
Time will fail me if I tell of Billy Graham, Pope John Paul II, Joyce Meyer….
What in heaven's name does being a natty dresser mean and why are you using weird words?
At least I didn't use the “d-c” word.
I think it is perfectly fine to disagree with a pastor, or disagree with his views, but when we get into personal attacks and get into hoping that he fails is when we totally lose every bit of credibility we have as Christians. I have disagreements with Creflo Dollar, Rick Warren, and pretty much the entire TBN crew. but as a Christian I know I should show love, and I should always do everything I can to magnify love wherever I am. I refer back to a comment posted on CNN when Jon Acuff guest posted on it, and someone actually commented on it that I think that you should just die. That is just awful. Also when we attack pastors because of their personal successes we fail to realize the hard work and prayer, and sacrifice they spent to get to that point.
Jon's CNN post was fantastic. And the topic of his post really fits in this conversation.
i actually really like francis chan. coz he tells it like it is. i love His books (especially forgotten God). maybe it's because im asian. ;) [does that make me racist? LOL]
mark driscoll reminds me of a bodybuilder on steroids. you know he's so concerned about being a
“big man”, being all loud about his physique…. but in reality, his manhood isn't really all there. LOL there's no other way i can describe how i feel about him.
Personally, I just stopped elevating pastors in such a way that they could have the power to become hero or villain.
There's a difference between disagreeing and engaging in a meaningful debate and being patronizing. Reminding Nicole that Mark is a “brother in Christ” doesn't address the issue, and is a rhetorical device used to put someone in a position of moral superiority. The video makes for interesting theological discussion: is Driscoll's strange rant about manliness fully backed by scripture? Jonathan and David had a deep friendship and, I don't believe, that we KNOW of, ever wrestled.
But then again, God wrestled with Jacob.
I think it could make for an interesting discussion if people did not resort to name-calling and condescension.
I'm just guessing, but I don't think Nicole minds at all that anyone disagrees with her. But it does bother her when someone plays that “I'm obviously morally superior because I don't criticize pastors of mega-churches unless their universally acknowledged to be loony-tunes” card.
It could be an interesting discussion. Did you actually read my comment where I posted things that were said about Driscoll that were condescending and name-calling?
I don't think the problem is with disagreeing with a pastor or with anyone for that matter. What bothers me is the way in which we disagree. It's become cute for some Christian bloggers to be snarky and ugly in tearing down others. For instance, Matt had one particular post in which he scathingly ridiculed Joel Osteen. I have no respect for Osteen; and I do believe he is leading many away from Christ, and it saddens me to see so many blindly following him. But tearing him down to get some laughs benefits no one, save Satan. Scripture tells us that we will be held accountable for every careless word we speak (and type, I believe) and we are to build each other up in love. And of the things Proverbs tells me the Lord hates, haughtiness and stirring up dissension seem to be running rampant on Christian blogs lately.
I think Rob Bell said it best in an interview in Relevant a while back, and reading this has helped me think before I type off some snarky blog post about someone:
“…so the world is an emergency. It’s on fire. It’s drowning. It’s an absolute crisis, and when followers of Jesus can think of nothing better to do with their time than to pick apart and shred to pieces the work of other followers of Jesus who are trying to do something around the world, that’s tragic, and I don’t owe those people anything. How a person would have energy to take shots at other Christians is just mind-boggling. You have to be so totally disconnected from the pain of the world to think that blogging is somehow a redemptive use of your time.”
And certainly he is addressing his critics with this quote, but still, it can apply to all of us.
I have struggled with making heroes and villains myself, based on my own personal convictions, but I have learned that not everyone will be in the same place as me at the same time.
But back to your question- I agree with the others in that disagreeing is fine as long as it's done in a way that builds up. I have three questions I ask myself before I say or type something now, and it has helped me so much in practicing discernment and keeping my mouth shut (and fingers still) when I feel like doing otherwise: Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? If I can answer “yes” to all three, then I speak/type away, but just one no and I keep it to myself.
While I don't say “douche canoe” I had to chuckle when I read it. It may not be a nice thing to say (whatever it means) but the assonance makes it fun to say. This means I'll be repeating the phrase to myself all day. And ignoring whatever mental images might come from it.
Yay for words. Even the gross ones.
I found myself in a strange position over at MPT's blog. I found myself defending Driscoll's position in, what appeared to be, the context in which he was speaking. I also agree with him in that context. Now, outside of that context it might be a different story.
Unfortunately because Driscoll often uses inflammatory rhetoric people feel like it's alright to take him to the proverbial woodshed. I find that my appreciation for Michael Shermer, Penn Jillette, Neal Boortz and other similar public figures usually elicits the same kind of response.
I don't think Driscoll is a Christian hero or villain. I also don't think that ANYONE is above being “fair game.” If you're in the public eye then there is a target on your back.
However, as with any subculture, there seems to be this drive to want to tear down or build up according to who people think is more “legit.” Sadly, a lot of the Christian “culture” in America seems to be following in the footsteps of music fandom. We pick and choose our favorite “performers” and we all want to be able to say we heard of them before they sold-out. After which we can't wait to show off how lame they've become.
It's Jesus as Elvis.
Of course.
Hmmm…
I think maybe having been outside the mainstream Christian church for so long gives me a little bit of a different take. I don't know so much about “heroes and villans” per se, but from out here, I see the church totally being led by the culture. Relevancy is good, but as society becomes more diverse, I've noticed a tendency among middle class suburban preachers to want to remake Jesus in their own image and swear that it's Biblical.
So these days, Jesus is manly. Jesus is a football player, a big tall (unspoken white) man who is a font of advice on running a business (the book Jesus as CEO, anyone?), promises wealth and prosperity to the faithful, and is a raging heterosexual to the point of (depending on which mega-denomination you're worshipping at) tactily condoning spousal abuse.
From where I stand, it's not quite so much about specific preachers being made into heroes and villans, but specific types of messages meant to restore patterns of power, control, and abuse of resources that really ought to be given up. That is, if the church plans on leading the culture anytime soon. If we're going to just keep being led around by our noses, using Scripture to affirm everything United States politics gets up to, whether for good or total foolishness, then Jesus Himself is slowly hoinh to be twisted into a hero for some and an enemy to those considered “undeserving outsiders”.
looking at the picture…. my only concern is that i hope we don't look upon Benny Hinn as the same as the rest of those guys.
My pastor / liberation heros — Troy Perry, Nancy Wilson, Carter Heyward, Kittredge Cherry, Sonia Johnson, Virginia Ramey Mollenkott, and many many more.
ok, I may have to jump on the “I'm-not-fond-of-Driscoll” bandwagon with you. I just read something he stated and it made me want to barf. B.A.R.F. barf all over him. What's up with that dude? {crazy-town}
What did you see?
I wish more people would.
I don't know any of those names. Wow.
No, but he does make me laugh. In retrospect, I should have gone with Pat Robertson. He's always a good time, too. Or Dr. Dobson.
Great point about messages.
Totally agree with your statement about folks in the public eye.
The nastiness drives me crazy too.
Love Chan for the same reason.