Thoughts on Mark Driscoll and Stay-At-Home Dads
I ran across this YouTube clip of Mark Driscoll and the Mrs. answering questions from the platform at Mars Hill Church. This clip is Mark’s response to a question about stay-at-home-dads.
When I first saw this, it absolutly infuriated me. My husband is a stay-at-home dad. By choice (his and mine), so needless to say I disagree. And I don’t think it means he’s less of a Christian. And I know it doesn’t mean that he is less of a man. Nor does it mean that I am less of a woman.
Check it out and let’s discuss.
Here is why I disagree with Pastor Mark:
- My husband is just as capable of loving, nuturing, and caring for our kids as I am. And yes, Mark, he is equally capable of dressing them.
- I fully believe that I can be a “Titus 2 woman” (Titus 2:3-5), one who is self-controlled, pure, busy at home, kind, and subject to my husband even if I have a nine-to-five job. And yes, it is an honor and responsibility to raise our chidren. It is my greatest honor. However, I do not believe even for a second that I was “built” be to be at home. And by the way, I think that I am an AMAZING mom.
- The passage from Timothy (1Timothy 5:8) is so out of context I don’t even know where to begin. So, let’s leave it at this: look up the ENTIRE chapter, read it, and learn that it has nothing to do with your employment status. NOTE: This is a perfect example of not swollowing what you hear…even if you hear it from a pulpit. Scripture out of context is dangerous no matter who is using it.
- My husband’s ability to “provide for his family” has NOTHING to do with whether or not he punches a time clock. Here are a few ways that he provides for me and our chidren: he supports my dreams, my ambitions and my ministry; he lovingly cares for our three children; he cares for our home and makes sure that our needs are met.
- My husband’s stay-at-home status does not mean that he is idle. He maintains the home; he gives of himself at our church in recovery ministries; he gives himself to our children by volunteering in their school almost daily; he is a constant presence at school and scouting functions to support Jacob, our special needs son (who, incidentally, adores him); and he serves three days a week at a local literacy center where he teaches adults to read.
My family is cared for, and my husband is providing for our family by staying at home. It honors me, it honors our children, AND it honors God. And I’ve read the entire Bible too. As for the church disciplince… well, I’ll keep my mouth shut.
Anyway, I have been a stay-at-home mom. I did it for two years and I hated it. Jesse has been doing it for two years and it has been amazing. This works for us. We believe it is important for one of us to be at home, especially to help Jacob. Eventually he’ll go back to work. When they are older and don’t need his constant care, he’d like to go back. But for now, this is what’s best for us. And I’m proud of our family.
I’ve had a lot of respect for Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill Church in the past. While I have a huge issue with this sermon clip it really isn’t about Pastor Mark. The real issue is that I believe many people in the church feel this way, and it makes me sad, angry, and frustrated.
What are your thoughts on traditional gender roles in the home?
I couldn’t agree more with you! Glad you got this thing posted! Wanted to post my stay at home Pastor’s response to Driscoll’s video (which I know I already shared with you). This is from a stay at home dad who happens to be a Pastor:
“Having watched the clip I can let Aimee know later this morning that 1) she doesn’t respect me; 2) our kids are unhealthy; 3) I conform to the patterns of this world; 4) and I am worse than the faithless. So, cereal should really suck. Yep, really suck. Can’t wait to wake up and screw my family over.
Driscoll reminds me of the man who boils down the care mentioned in Scripture to: paying bills, buying clothes, and filling the fridge. What if I can’t provide health insurance for my family? What if my prison record or felony of the past leaves me flipping burgers and my wife is stricken with a disease I can’t afford? Driscoll comes across as a minimalist in this clip. Driscoll does (in this short clip) what makes me sick. He cuts and frames Scripture into principles. Does he in answering the question even explain the context of 1 Tim 5? (See attachment) Does he not see that Paul is dealing with an attitude of neglect against an attitude of sacrificial love, which expresses itself in care and concern for those who CANNOT care for themselves by those who would have the closest of all association and (possibly) hope of care? No not for a second. Where is the biblical support for his superficial stance? In fact, from what research is he gleaning the statistics he mentions repeatedly? Both Scripture and science are hidden from us. I suppose the validation comes through his wife seated next to him and his willingness to lose people via bold facts. Ahh, what a man. Finally, a bad-ass preacher. Whew!”
Brad – I love your pastor’s response. He brings up some good points. These was a time when Jesse and I were both working. We had more money but it sucked. Our sanity is improved by one of us being at home! There are lots f reasons that it works for me to be the bread winner, practical reasons not just the emotional ones. For starters my job offers excellent heath care and his did not.
I can see Marks point, and I can see yours.
Personally…I think the ideal is that the woman looks after her kids as the primary care giver, but I am not going to judge anyone who does not do this.
Yeah, exactly! Isn’t it wiser to do what’s best for the family? If your job works out to be more advantageous for the fam, then why can’t your hubby stay home and care for the kids. From what you wrote in your blog post, it sounds like your husband is kicking ass and taking names when it comes to serving! That’s incredibly honorable!!
Mark E – It may be ideal for some but it wasn’t for us. At all. Thanks for not judging ;)
Brad – He is totally kicking butt and taking names. He loves serving. And I love that he does it. It makes him all the more attractive to me. :)
my dad worked full-time outside the home and traveled 90% of the week so that we could be “provided for.” my mom was home full-time and developed clinical depression and emotionally checked out when i was just 8 years old.
so Mark… you tell me which would have been better.
i would have rather had parents in equal partnership financially, physically, emotionally and spiritually… than to grow up with parents with traditional gender rolls who i didn’t know and didn’t know me.
Nicole,
I’ve not watched the video but Driscoll has made his feelings known about this subject for quite a while so I’m familiar with his position.
I believe God has the creative skills to create men *and* women who are equipped to “stay at home”. I’ve watched this play out in the lives of people and I’ve not read any scripture that contradicts this belief.
Taking care of children, the home, your spouse, etc. is a HUGE JOB if you want to do it well. I always say a big AMEN to people who rightly point out that “staying at home” is probably more work than going to work outside of the home! I’m not a stay at home dad but I do stay at home with the kids sometimes when they are sick or for various other reasons. It’s hard work and I’d say that for me it is much more difficult than working outside the home.
All that said, I do believe that some people are wired more appropriately for this role (but it has little to do with gender in my opinion). Some women don’t thrive in that environment and some men do. I believe God has called us to raise our children in His ways and if the best way for you to do that is with Jesse at home then God bless you both for recognizing your gifts as parents and embracing those roles.
The epistles are not the Proverbs. You can’t take them a sentence or two at a time. They weren’t written that way, and I think it would cheese Paul off to no end that people do this.
What worries me is not this instance specifically but the general practice of turning exegesis into an exercise in mining for sins, then, if possible, placing them beyond the pale of grace. (This is done with homosexuality all the time.) It’s like setting up a new form of circumcision. The Rev. Driscoll doesn’t go so far, but I wonder about his words having negative impact on others. My fear is that hard-headed or less astute people will take what he says and run with it in the wrong direction. The direction of, “Oh, you don’t have a job. You’re going to hell. Get out of my church.” Or worse yet, “I got laid off and can’t find another job and now my wife is working at the Wal-Mart. I’m going to hell. I give up on God.” There’s a real peril of denying the Cross here, and as we all know, “there remains no further sacrifice for sins.” Personally, I can’t keep the whole Law, though you’re welcome to try if you want.
The other, more pragmatic problem with this clip is that people will use it to justify all sorts of bad behavior in the name of “providing.” I once had a guy in an AA meeting (not a Christian) encourage me to pursue a bogus unemployment claim under that banner (I didn’t). And how many kids are neglected by 80-hour-workweek dads in the name of “providing”? Again, I’m sure the Rev. Driscoll wouldn’t condone such things. But again, where are people going to take his words and run with them?
Other than that, I wouldn’t presume to argue, and I try not to pick on Rev. Driscoll just because he shoots off his mouth from time to time. It’s hard to be a big-time operator. People expect you to have all the answers.
I just wrote and rewrote a response. But they were sarcastic and rude toward Mark Driscoll, so I will just say that I think he is wrong…dead wrong.
Amen Nicole. I agree with everything you’ve said here.
Everyone is different, there’s no “RIGHT” way to raise a family, organise or run a household (that’s not to say that their aren’t ‘wrong’ ways, just that there is no ‘one’ right way).
Hey everyone, thanks for all of your encouragement. I appreciate it :) I even appreciate the folks who are dissagreeing with me on Twitter… sigh.
Crystal – I love you.
Jesse – I love you, too :) Your comment sounds WAY smarter than my post… I married up.
P.S. I need a better commenting system so I can reply directly to people in the thread. Can one of you WP experts hook me up?
In an ideal world, life would be like Leave it to Beaver…and it seem like that is what Mark is envisioning. But we live in the real world where people get laid off, daycare is crazy expensive, and families do what they have to do to make it work. I do believe that God built men to provide, but like you said, Nicole, our interpretations of providing are relative to our situations. My dad was a workaholic and while he put food on the table and a roof over our heads, he was physically and emotionally absent. Some would say he provided…but did he?
We can all say what we want about Mark Driscoll, but I’ve always admired his courage to address any issue, whether I agree with him or not.
Thanks, Nicole, for reminding us that life is not always black and white. We should embrace & support the gray areas in each other and not judge anyone’s life situation.
What about the cultural context of Paul’s writing? It was a time when there was no separation of work & home. You lived where you worked & worked where you lived. Furthermore the father’s role was not babysitter but teacher fortheir children. When the boys were 8 or so they would their mother’s side & follow the dad, to learn the family business.
So it would SAH mom & dad!
Furthermore what a limited view on provision. Granted the father needs to make sure the family is being taken care, materially, AND socially, spiritually, emotionally, etc. He’s like a manager, makng sure things are being done correctly filling in where gaps/needs are.
Furthermore I worry about his work. He is gone A LOT. How is he providing, he’s not there at the dinner table every night…His defense is that there is push/pull. You sacrifice here & make up for it here. How is the SAH dad not the same?
I can see how he is trying to push a bunch of selfish man 20somethings into being responsible roles; though it seems at the cost of good biblical interpretation.
Nicole, I completely agree with you. I would actually love to be a stay at home dad! I think that is providing for my family. Providing a solid male figure in my 2 boys life is just as providing as a paycheck. My wife loves what she does and would love to do it full time, but can’t because of my job and the lack of desire to hire a daycare center. I can fully honor God by supporting, caring, and loving my wife by letting her fulfill her dreams as a personal trainer. Anyway, thanks for posting this. Great to think about and wrestle with.
I stopped watching one minute in. Her comment about a man “not being able to provide for his family is worse than an unbeliever” made me gag.
In my experience, there’s nothing you can say to people who believe those things. Until they wake up and realize how they have repressed themselves with these beliefs, they will turn a deaf ear to any other way to live.
Maybe it’s just me, but I get tired of listening to people like Driscoll on issues I completely disagree with and just getting worked up. Maybe that’s just cynical of me, but I’m not even bothering to watch the video.
Stay at home dads rock. You know it, I know it.
I really like Mark Driscoll. I don’t agree with everything he says (especially with regard to Calvinism but that is another debate), but like Mark E said, I can see his point. I have two close friends who have swapped the traditional roles and it is working out for them as it is for you Nicole. The husband is certainly capable of providing for the family, but there were certain advantages to him staying home so that’s how it worked out.
I also think we have to keep in mind the audience Driscoll is speaking to. Yes, the videos are out there for pubic consumption and I’m sure Driscoll would say the same thing, but it’s possible to that much of the context is driven towards his congregation which is made up largely of younger (under 30) men and women. If you’ve ever seen the video where he throws down the gauntlet to men in the church about how they treat women, it’s sort of the same thing.
While the traditional roles being reversed works for you Nicole and for my two friends, I know of another couple (a woman who works in my office) that fits within the framework of what Pastor Driscoll is talking about. She works full time and often works overtime when that option is available. Why? Because her husband has this pipe dream of making it as a musician (I’ve heard his band’s stuff. It’s nothing better than what an average band in your average bar would play on a Friday night) and stays home with the 3 kids so that he can play music (and play Xbox online as well) but then still expects his wife to the “wife” things after she gets home from work. It’s this kind of attitude where I think Mark is discussing 1 Timothy 5:8 in the proper context with regard to that situation. This man should get off his butt and provide for his family first and then worry about seeing if he can make it as a musician.
I can see how some people would react strongly to this, but I just saw what he was saying from a different perspective.
Wow. Nothing much to add to the comments, but the shallowness of Driscoll’s “thinking” here is stunning. He is far from anything even remotely resembling the Gospel. Of course one should leave his church! Leave it quickly. Leave it NOW.
I’m very surprised I’m not seeing more attacks on Mark Driscoll in the comments.
I think that in this case, he is wrong. Very wrong. Potentially dangerously wrong.
As you said, there are a ton of reasons to have boatloads of respect for Mark Driscoll and the ministry he does.
But that never means that a person is going to be right about every opinion they have, or every interpretation of scripture they use.
No matter how holy/fruit-full/obedient/faithful/etc they may be.
This is, of course, not at all the most Christian of responses to a statement like Driscoll’s, but my gut reaction is to say that if he wants to tell me I’m less of a man because I stay at home with my kids and don’t have a job, he’s welcome to try and say it to my face.
Here is the thing that bothered me about this video the most.
I was a kid that grew up in daycare because my mom worked.
I am pretty sure that I turned out okay. That really bothered me hearing that statement.
Especially because Mark has the luxury of his wife staying at home because his church (probably filled with moms that work and some stay at home dads) pay his salary.
I know that if I was a stay at home Dad and heard this video I would have a hard time feeling good about myself. I know for myself the reason stay at home is because of the situation you describe with your family or the fact that I want to be apart of raising my kids.
I got a lot of emotions watching this. There is no excuse for a guy to just be lazy and not have a job, but just because you are a stay at home dad does not mean that you are pathetic, lazy, and very incapable of making a living.
I guess I need to go and drink a beer and watch some more UFC to get what Mark is saying :)
Heated issues here! When I read this post and the comments I wonder if there is only one parenting strategy regarding who stays home and what God expects. As a child and adolescent psychologist, I find many health children who have stay at home fathers or stay at home mothers. I believe all parents need to weigh this issue with their family’s needs along with prayerful consideration and wise counsel.
I was struggling as to whether to comment or not because I couldn’t finish watching the video. I could only get to the part where Pastor Mark quotes scripture and applies it without regard to context or culture. In Bible College we were taught that good exegesis takes into account the context, including textual, cultural and historical. At the time of Paul’s writing it would have been near impossible for a woman to provide for her family. For a man in New Testament times to reject taking care of his family would leave them destitute and at the mercy of others to care for.
I agree with you, Nicole. Even though I stay at home, my husband is probably better suited to staying home than I am. I have greater earning potential than my husband, but his ministry is our priority (he is a youth pastor). For me, I am using this time to be refined by God. It has been a struggle everyday, but it is getting better. It is a tough decision, but not one that should be misguided by bad exegesis.
I wish that I could put a positive spin on this, but there’s no way to justify the intellectual and scriptural flaw’s of the Driscolls’ arguments. Most of the scriptural errors have already been addressed in other comments.
It’s shocking that such a simpleton is considered a thought-leader. Mr. and Mrs. Driscoll are contorting scripture to justify their pre-existing biases.
He reads, “People need to take care of the widows in their family and community” and hears, “Dudes need to have W-9.” Brilliant.
His characterization of stay-at-home dads as overgrown boys with Peter Pan complexes is mean, simplistic and–more often than not–inaccurate.
Well, it’s time for me to get back to work … because I’m a real man. {belch}
I’m a stay-at-home dad and a huge fan of Mark Driscoll.
I will admit that my wife is probably better equipped to take care of our daughter and home, but I do pretty great at it too, if I do say so myself!
In my opinion I think it would be ideal to have mom at home and dad at work, simply because I’m not so naive to think that men and women are, or can be the same. We are wired differently and that’s a very good thing. I tend to lack the incredible tenderness and amazing intuition my wife has with our daughter. But I care for her in a completely different way.
My wife still looks to me for protection and to provide spiritually for our family. I agree with you that this scripture was taken out of context. It is said in the context of fulfilling selfish desires and living in self-indulgence, not in terms of being gainfully employed. Thing is, having and caring for children is the very epitome of self-sacrifice. My wife and I both gave up a lot of things so that we could provide for our daughter. I know that I am and will continue to provide for my family.
Full disclosure: I’m also a music producer and worship pastor so I do work from home. But I’m still a stay-at-home dad first and foremost.
I am at the end of my contract and will likely get a renewal this year. I am indeed “able bodied.” According to Mark I should get whatever “able bodied” job is available (the market is really thin right now) even if it creates undue stress on me that I would then bring home. My wife has a degree and a license in counseling. She can get the better job in our area. I can work at home part time and stay at home so that a parent is with our kids more. I am closer to my kids than my dad ever was with me.
He confuses “statistics” that he does not mention with “biblically” as if there is one raw way of reading this stuff. He should also sell all he has and re-distribute it to the poor. This is what Jesus commands the rich young man. He sits there telling us not to confuse the world with God and yet all I see is a sad man who has done nothing but confuse a world’s broken understanding of gender roles with the will of God for human flourishing. By the way, statistically the evidence shows that maximizing parental nurture is the primary variable to determine happiness. It is about social connectedness that predicts our relative joy in this life. My two sons having close, intimate, and meaningful relationships with me, their father, is a good thing, a very good thing. Staying at home with them will only reinforce this.
He’s arrogant, quite stupid, and ignorant. He is a personality in search of content. that so many people buy his bullshit on a regular basis is more evidence of the root of our insane society than the presence of God. Shameful.
I meant NOT get a renewal this year. oops.
Nicole, thank you for posting this. I respectfully disagree with Pastor Mark on this issue because I know several able-bodied men who, in today’s market, are unable to find a job while their wives can. So she works and he cares for their children. It is working for their family and their kids and in my opinion that’s what matters most. Thank you for sharing your heart on this topic. I’m sure a lot of people don’t agree that dads should stay at home but I say if it works for your family then by all means.
His characterization of stay-at-home dads as overgrown boys with Peter Pan complexes is mean, simplistic and–more often than not–inaccurate.
Ok, I have to correct you here (and quite honestly, to anybody else that is making a comment, you should watch the ENTIRE video, not 30 seconds or a minute and use it as a springboard to do some Driscoll bashing which seemingly has become en vogue these days). He did not characterize stay at home dads as overgrown boys with Peter Pan complexes. He was talking about the culture we live in. Just prior to his Peter Pan comment he said, “It’s a culture of hook-up, shack-up, break-up” and then he said, “It’s a culture in which men act like Peter Pan, and they’re boys for way too long.” He follows that up with comments about guys thinking they’re men simply because they shave. He then says (and this is important): “If you cannot provide for your family, you are not a man.” I took cannot to mean “the capacity” to do so outside a serious illness, injury or something else that would prevent a man from working and providing for his family. The situation with Nicole and her husband and my two friends differs because these were mutually agreed upon decisions with both the husband and the wife having some input.
I do know of another situation (these folks were known to me, but weren’t really friends) where the wife wanted to go back to work and also wanted the husband to stay home to take care of the two kids. She had the potential for executive level pay and the husband did not. It caused a lot of problems in their marriage because the result was not mutually beneficial. I gave that other example of the stay at home Dad whose doing it because he thinks he can make it as a musician. In that example the man is putting his “job” ahead of his wife and children and that’s wrong. As I said earlier he needs to provide for his family first and then when he has spare time, he can make a go at it as a musician.
I would love to quit my job right now and go into photography full time. I could work it out and have my wife go to work full time. Our kids are 13 & 12 so they’re in school most of the day. I could spend my day taking photos, marketing, editing, etc. I could use the excuse that it would free me up for more family time at the end of the day. But if my wife was content to be a stay at home Mom, how am I honoring God and my family by forcing her to work full time? If its in God’s plans for my photography business to become a full time gig, then He will make it happen. But my first duty as a husband and father is to provide for my family. This is what I saw from Mark Driscoll’s video.
And Kyle, Mark said that statistically it is better for children to be raised in the home than it is to have kids in daycare all the time. His statement is correct. Just because he says it is better for kids to be raised at home, doesn’t mean that any kid that doesn’t is going to be messed up. There are exceptions and that’s why he used the word “statistically” because not every situation is the same nor does it yield the same results.
Since you are so theologically enlightened, would you mind sharing exactly what 1 Timothy 5:8 means, in context? And ps – anyone can take a clip and get raging mad. Perhaps you should listen to the sermon in context?
Wow. It just makes me laugh on a lot of levels. I think it’s so convenient when people can get everything all summed up for everyone else.
Is it just me or did Mark not even answer the question? Didn’t the submitter ask about stay at home dads? He goes on and on about daycare and parents not raising their children. Just because a man stays at home doesn’t mean he’s not willing to work, in some instances he is actually supporting his wife more by staying home if the alternative is for her to stay at home.
he makes a lot of good points, i’m just not sure they are conclusive the argument he’s trying to prove.
Torrie -
I Timothy 5 is about the care of widows. Paul is instructing Timothy not to put widows on the rolls for church financial support unless they are “widows indeed” – without family to support them. If a man has widows in his “household” (remember, the nuclear family as we know it today would have been an aberration in the ancient world – your household included your widowed grandma, spinster aunt and God knows who else), he should be taking care of them, and if he deliberately refuses, he’s in big trouble. You don’t have to construct some theological argument to dope this out – it’s the plain meaning of the passage if you read the whole thing. (See also the passage in whichever of the gospels it is where Jesus takes the Pharisees to task for setting aside money that they could use to help aged parents as given to God – and then never giving it to God.)
There is no context for this “sermon,” because it isn’t a sermon. Driscoll is fielding questions from the audience. This clip is his answer to this question in total. It’s all there is, and there ain’t no more.
Mark Driscoll is easy to pick on because he talks a lot and sometimes comes off as a bit cocky. I appreciate that no one here has resorted to personal pot shots at him, because I’m sure he means well. I just got a little twisted up about this particular clip because, despite his protestations about not being a legalist, it smacks to me of legalism. And in my experience, for the spiritually immature it can be a short trip from legalism to apostasy. I’m NOT calling Driscoll apostate, or even a legalist per se. As I understand it, he’s good and Reformed just like me. But I’m concerned that the way he presents stuff about gender issues sometimes has the potential to make his weaker brothers stumble. This clip is a case in point.
I understand the sensitivity toward this issue from the perspective of those who disagree with Driscoll. However, I think, just as Jay mentioned, we must look at the group of people that Driscoll is speaking to. Look at our culture–we have many men who would call themselves Christian, but would rather not accept the responsibilities of marriage. (We all have experiences to prove our points, so here is mine which shapes my opinion a bit.) My last three family counseling experiences have been with unmarried couples, in their early twenties, who are living together, with children and/or expecting a child, and the dudes in these houses do not provide profitably for their wife or their children. They are coming to my office because they are at their end and about to separate…all because the “man” does not get out to work…sure he has a burger-flipping job, car-washing job, but the main focus of these “men” is playing video games and/or computer games. I sat here last week and watched a young woman cry about how her “Christian man” sets the alarm for 4 am to get up and play video games…BUT he won’t get up on Saturdays to go to the park or spend family time–her only day off at work. She is about to have to take a leave from work to give birth to their second child. What was the guy’s response? He laughed.
Nicole, I don’t think Driscoll is talking to you, per se. Your situation and the situation I mention are completely different. I think your husband is providing for your family in great ways. So perhaps Driscoll’s words are not for you. But they are for the three guys that I am counseling. I think he is speaking to guys like I am counseling who are truly being disrespectful to the women of their life. For Driscoll, he has a certain order to the home and he teaches that to his congregation. You have a certain order to your home and you would answer your way if asked about this same question. But Driscoll is right on target to call young men to action.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
This clip really got me fired up, especially on behalf of some great stay at home dads that I know. My full comments are on my blog. The short link is here: http://wp.me/pPqBO-7l
I think people take a few seconds and blow it out of proportion. If you have not watched the full sermon then save your comments til you have. Espescially watch “Men and Marriage” where he addresses other issues like workaholic dads. I will say this though, when you have an audience the size of Driscoll lets see how well you address every issue in scripture without offending anyone. Keep in mind, he is talking to his church, he did not persue your attention, you sought it out, so go easy.
I agree with Dan that it might be advantageous for people to listen to the entire sermon upon which this clip is obviously based. The entire 60+ minute sermon gives this a lot more context.
There are women all throughout the bible who are leaders of churchs and doing work. marc Driscols view is completely shaped by a 20th centuryand western shaped understanding of what it means to be a man. He is completely Full of shit and lies derived from Satan.
I never realized there were women storm troopers because that is what his wife is a mindless, subservient and weak being. Dont give me that weeping crying B.S. Women in scripture are strong women that will not do what the culture says. apparently she has no idea of what that is and just as her husband she has a narrow minded view of scripture which is fromed by a 20th century understanding of scripture
Marc Driscol has no grounds to talk about what it means to be a man biblically or in any other way because he is obviously ignorant and more interested in creating people who will follow him and not jesus
I am glad he used the scripture about not being conformed to the world(which he is using completely out of context and proof texting with) because he needs to meditate on it a lot, he has been conformed to the westernized 20th century reading of scripture.
and it is funny as soon as he said one would go under church discipline in his church for being a stay at home dad he said he doesnt want to be legalistic. Sound very typical of modern church leaders who talk out two sides of their mouth so they can be in control and have a church full of storm troopers
This is a clear description of the wolf in sheeps clothing that is spoken of in scripture
I suppose mark that it is wrong for men to show emotions right? just be strong dont show vulnerability right? oh sorry jesus showed every attribute of the things the 20th century has showed to be the way women are made. sorry it doesnt work. that crap and this are great examples of this world being conformed by the culture. THERE IS NOT ONE PLACE IN SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS IN ANY WAY THAT IT IS A SIN TO BE A STAY AT HOME DAD. It does talk about the judgement decievers and liars and those who use the message of scripture for thier own good and from their own understanding will face
hopefully darth driscol will repent of this evil misuse of the bible and what God’s best is for men before he spends his life in the pit of hell
Well, I’ve gotten way more support for this post than I thought I would. Thanks guys :)
There are some GREAT points here… more than I have time to address right this second. However, I would like to respond to three thoughts expressed here.
A few comments suggest that Driscoll is addressing the young members of his congregation. Here’s my thought on that: Really? He’s gained a large amount of notoriety and knows that his sermons are reaching a really large audience though YouTube, the Mars Hill Church online campus and HIS IPHONE APP!!! Pastor Mark knows that his message is being broadcast to thousands. While I totally disagree with him, I don’t believe that he is a) stupid or b) completely irresponsible. I think that this is just what he believes.
Second, some are commenting that he is only referring to deadbeat dads, lazy guys, and young 20-somethings who are irresponsible. These comments also suggest that he would be cool with our situation. Um…. I don’t get that from this message. Or from many of the other things that I have heard him say about men and women.
Third, I don’t need to see the entire 60 minute sermon for “context.” I get it. Again, he has been pretty vocal about his opinion on these situations. Additionally, it seems to me that this clip is not from a traditional sermon message; rather, it is part of a Q&A series. As far as I can see the question was asked and he answered it. Period.
Thanks for all of your comments. I’m really enjoying the great conversation!
I don’t see any reason for him to insinuate that I Timothy 5:8 is directed toward men. The word is a neutral term: “if any” (ei tis). Also, as others have pointed out here – is the only way to “provide” through monetary means? I don’t see any need to demean Driscoll – he has done GREAT kingdom work. I just think he is a little myopic in this instance, that’s all.
I just wanted to throw out some obvious observations.
Nicole – First, Mars Hill does not have an online campus. His sermons are online for people to download, but in today’s world an online campus is a completely different thing. Second, why not give him the benefit of the doubt that he is addressing his answer towards the people in his church? After all…the question came from someone in his church. Does he know that other people around the world we’ll eventually see it? Of course, but he still must pastor his congregation and answer their questions for their specific context. Speaking of context, I find it funny that you call Mark on taking 1 Tim. 5:8 “out of context” but then feel that there is nothing wrong with taking this video “out of context” of his entire sermon. Just an observation.
Jim – your comments are inappropriate, at best, and before you cast stones at another Christian, you should probably do a bit more research than watching one short clip. A lot of people disagree with Mark on many issues, but to say “he is obviously ignorant and more interested in creating people who will follow him and not Jesus” is about as “ignorant” of a statement that I’ve ever seen.
Hi Nicole,
I don’t think that this clip is applicable to every family or every situation. What I would also say, is that in the context of Mars Hill, dealing with a lot of 20 somethings who would rather be indie rockers and make their families subject to their self-imposed starving artist status, his comments hits the mark. I don’t know this for sure, but I would dare say that this is addressing a self-centered mindset that he sees in his congregation and visitors. As to taking scripture out of context, I do believe that Mark at times, takes what is descriptive in scripture and tries to make it prescriptive. In a day like this, when people leave the truth of the Gospel of Christ for anything and nothing, preachers are intentionally deceitful, and there are more sex scandals than car dealerships, if this is the worst of his mistakes, I think I can show him some grace and simply pray for him.
Thanks,
Nathan
Nicole, thanks for posting this.
I am a stay at home dad. I strongly disagree with Mr. Driscoll. I had a hard time stomaching the video. In my experience, This is the best job I have ever had and the hardest.
Here are a few things I know for sure, I am not worse than an unbeliever, nor should I be disciplined by my church for being the main care giver of my family. That just enrages me.
Glad to hear all of the encouraging words here in the comments.
When I first came across this flip I was so frustrated I couldn’t settle down until I had responded to it. Here are my (extended) thoughts as a stay at home dad:
http://kickert.info/blog/2009/06/28/driscoll-slams-stay-at-home-dads/
I have to side with Driscoll on this one.
I do not believe the model we see where a woman being the sole (or even main breadwinner) is supported by Scripture. I can’t get behind the cafeteria Christianity rooted in “it works for us” philosophy. Do any of those challenging Driscoll’s perspective on this have Scripture backing this marriage/family structure?
Do I think you’re going to hell if the woman works and the husband stays at home? Not at all. But as Christians, I believe it is our responsibility to live lives that align with God’s inerrant word – not to try to adapt it to “the culture.”
My husband loves Driscoll. I think he is cocky, arrogant & prideful.
Ok. When you say you husband supports your ministry and your dreams.. is your ministry cooking? Are your dreams Laundry? If not, you are both living un-biblical lives and need to REPENT. I think it’s very clear in todays world that woman are not as smart as men. They aren’t as strong as men, and they certainly cannot provide like men. The only thing they are capable of is being at home with kids. Watching soaps and cooking and cleaning.
I think the Bible Says… “Why don’t you buy your wife a watch? Because there’s a clock on the stove.” Look it up. It’s in there. Read the entire thing until you find it. I bet you come back to me with knowledge.
Now. If a woman wants to try and work. That’s fine by me. The world has made it known that a woman will make at least 10% less than me. Because I have a penis. And I think that’s how it should be. My penis deserves an extra 10%…. as does every penis in America.
I will also point out, that if women didn’t work. There would be less “Office affairs”… and the world would be a better place.
One more thing to drive my point home. Eve ate the apple. I know.. as a man… with a penis… that Adam BEGGED her not to. Us men don’t really care to know anything… so why would we eat from the tree of ‘knowledge”? This is why you are cursed to stay at home… make us food, and do what we want when we want.
Don’t even get me started on a woman who wants to go to school, vote, or learn how to read! (obviously I mean other things, besides recipes and price tags for grocery shopping) If we let it go any further, people are going to start saying that Jesus wasn’t a white republican who is for the death penalty. ( I mean. he was so for it, he went through it!)
PREPOSTEROUS!!! It’s the Armageddon. Jesus save us all.. (Except women…)
whoops. I forgot the part about just kidding.
Oh my freaking word… Andy, I love you. Jesse and I are crying laughing :)