Thoughts on Mark Driscoll and Stay-At-Home Dads
I ran across this YouTube clip of Mark Driscoll and the Mrs. answering questions from the platform at Mars Hill Church. This clip is Mark’s response to a question about stay-at-home-dads.
When I first saw this, it absolutly infuriated me. My husband is a stay-at-home dad. By choice (his and mine), so needless to say I disagree. And I don’t think it means he’s less of a Christian. And I know it doesn’t mean that he is less of a man. Nor does it mean that I am less of a woman.
Check it out and let’s discuss.
Here is why I disagree with Pastor Mark:
- My husband is just as capable of loving, nuturing, and caring for our kids as I am. And yes, Mark, he is equally capable of dressing them.
- I fully believe that I can be a “Titus 2 woman” (Titus 2:3-5), one who is self-controlled, pure, busy at home, kind, and subject to my husband even if I have a nine-to-five job. And yes, it is an honor and responsibility to raise our chidren. It is my greatest honor. However, I do not believe even for a second that I was “built” be to be at home. And by the way, I think that I am an AMAZING mom.
- The passage from Timothy (1Timothy 5:8) is so out of context I don’t even know where to begin. So, let’s leave it at this: look up the ENTIRE chapter, read it, and learn that it has nothing to do with your employment status. NOTE: This is a perfect example of not swollowing what you hear…even if you hear it from a pulpit. Scripture out of context is dangerous no matter who is using it.
- My husband’s ability to “provide for his family” has NOTHING to do with whether or not he punches a time clock. Here are a few ways that he provides for me and our chidren: he supports my dreams, my ambitions and my ministry; he lovingly cares for our three children; he cares for our home and makes sure that our needs are met.
- My husband’s stay-at-home status does not mean that he is idle. He maintains the home; he gives of himself at our church in recovery ministries; he gives himself to our children by volunteering in their school almost daily; he is a constant presence at school and scouting functions to support Jacob, our special needs son (who, incidentally, adores him); and he serves three days a week at a local literacy center where he teaches adults to read.
My family is cared for, and my husband is providing for our family by staying at home. It honors me, it honors our children, AND it honors God. And I’ve read the entire Bible too. As for the church disciplince… well, I’ll keep my mouth shut.
Anyway, I have been a stay-at-home mom. I did it for two years and I hated it. Jesse has been doing it for two years and it has been amazing. This works for us. We believe it is important for one of us to be at home, especially to help Jacob. Eventually he’ll go back to work. When they are older and don’t need his constant care, he’d like to go back. But for now, this is what’s best for us. And I’m proud of our family.
I’ve had a lot of respect for Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill Church in the past. While I have a huge issue with this sermon clip it really isn’t about Pastor Mark. The real issue is that I believe many people in the church feel this way, and it makes me sad, angry, and frustrated.
What are your thoughts on traditional gender roles in the home?
Wow. Mark is a little man.
In so many ways.
If you want to see even more lively comments from at-home dads themselves, check out this discussion thread, http://www.athomedad.org/node/3356, on the athomedad.org forum. We nicknamed him “Pastor Bowling Shirt” and, if you go toward the end of the thread you will find a comments directly from a representative from his church. It is really worth your time to check it out!
Al- Thanks for the link!
Where do I begin??? If this was the only time I ever saw Mark Driscoll, which it is but I’m pretending as if its not, I would be completely offended… oh wait, I am.
I’m a stay at home dad. I was laid off from the closing of a non-profit organization. My wife is WAY smarter than me, got more education and makes more money… when we decided to switch roles, it was something we knew was good for our family. At least for the time being.
What this couple says in this video is utter double standard and arrogant.
Good thing I got to read Andy’s take on all of this before I blew a gasket!
1. If Mr. Driscoll spent every day with his kids, he become a much better man: patient, attentive, caring, and playful.
2. “to toss aside like this responsibility can be done be anyone”… huh? A father is not “anyone”. That is horribly condescending.
3. If a dad spends each day with his children, he becomes a super-attentive observer knowing the needs, wants and personalities of his kids… that’s not a woman thing, it’s a relationship thing.
4. So there’s exception if you have cancer, but not if you get laid off.
5. If you’re going to get so literal, Gracie needs to go get a head covering.
He ends with thanking his wife for taking a “non-contributing” role in the family (according to his wife’s words). When I take care of my kids, I am making the contribution best for our family and children. Far better than sending us into poverty.
There are so many issues to take a stand on like the poor, homeless, addicted, and orphans. Why come down on the stay at home dad???
It’s a sad commentary of grace and understanding when you make such irresponsible statements.
Well, well, well.
Who knew I was “worse than an unbeliever?” Guess that means I’m going to Hell. I should scrap this ministry idea. I never wanted to be a pastor anyway. I mean, Mark has it covered….there are no more lost souls for me to find. I mean, should I apologize? I’m only doing this while I’m in school, learning to deliver His Word. But it’s all for nothing, I guess…..ya know, since I’m going to Hell and all.
or
I wonder if I can provide for my family in a way that’s not financial? I wonder if I can be the “leader” of my family and not have an income that surpasses my wife’s? I wonder, if indeed I’m a sinner for staying home, if I can be forgiven?
Driscoll isn’t an idiot….when he shakes things up, more people come to his church and give him more $$$….oops, that’s me judging him….kinda like he has me…..yet he doesn’t even know it…..I think I’ll be ok.
This couple is why so many people have trouble with religion. I cannot tell you how infuriated I was when Toby had me listen to this. Basically Mark is saying that my family is danger of going to Hell because Toby is a stay at home Dad, who goes to college, volunteers at church and school, works at the School at church part time, oh yeah and I’m a Soldier in the US Army. Maybe all us women should just put on a burka and leave the men in charge. Oh wait that hasn’t worked out so well for Afghanistan has it. I understand that the Bible is open for interpretation but come on, have some common sense. They had to have known that this little “soap box” speech of theirs would generate some publicity and we all know that there is no such thing as bad publicity as long as it gets you noticed and is free. By the way, we save well over $600 a month with Toby staying home during the day and working at night part time.
Wow. Some great discussion going on here.
I posted about this clip back in 2008. http://russhutto.com/2008/10/should-i-be-a-stay-at-home-dad/
Kind of amazed that it’s still getting so much play.
Basically in my response, I tackle the word “provide” – I think that’s where Driscol is “off” a bit. The interpretation (or cultural perspective) of the word provide seems to be the pivotal part of this video. But provide has nothing to do with the literal “work” a person does. It has everything to do with FORESIGHT and PREPARATION. Check out my post.
PS Check your settings and see if the “threaded comments” option is chosen. If it is and comments aren’t threading, I’d be interested to see if we could get a solution up and running for you.
This church might have a high-paid video editing team, a wardrobe taken exclusively from “the buckle” at Nordstrom, and be comfortable talking about “edgy” topics, but they might as well have named themselves “Pharisee Hill” church.
The bad theological ideas here are as old as religion itself.
Thank you to all those who have been more articulate and graceful than me, usually I am that way but as a stay at home dad, who chooses to be a stay at home dad,and has a brilliant wife and that is acknowledged by others, I was insensed by being called peter pan, or some how begin called a lesser man.
To Josh, no it is not one bit inappropriate. It is not backing down from arrogant, one sided, completely uncompassioante and unpastoral comments. I have to wonder about all these young people in this congregation. If they question marc do they just get “church discipline” and then eveyone continues to move on. Or is it a case of anything that challenges the church leaders is “disciplined” and leadership and those who remain is the “clone army”
I dont need to see the rest of what driscol said and from comments of others this is always his thoughts. He made it very clear in what he said, that somehow I am a lesser man and am not following a biblical life becuase I choose to invest greater amounts of time with God’s highest responsibility that he has put in my life.
I am tired of this crap existing in the so called christian world. A white man of means has great influence on a lot of people and is interested in being in power and control and does it with his knowledge to intimidate those of lesser knowledge or means.
That is exactly what this is. I am not ignorant I just am not afraid to call a spade a spade
why does marc have to put the disclaimer “we are not legalist” hm some insecurity driscoll.
Find it humorous that the comments, “we are not legalist” and “Church Discipline” are in the same breath
this morning I am going to spend time with my sons, feeding them changing diapers, help them to see how much I love them so they will respect me and choose to be strong Godly young men and some day strong old men who will care about their kids some day and have respect for women. I am going to make sure my wife has a comfortable clean environment in our house when she get home from work so she can enjoy her family. God must be really disapointed in me today. Guess I will see ya in hell driscoll
Hi,
I have a bit of a different perspective on this, and today was prove of my point.
I work in a college in Canada. Because of economic downturn. a lot of people in the older generations have had to make changes and it has been tough. One guy I talk to today is trying really hard to find a job. Actually people coming from another country do not have the education required to get a job.
That is why I'm completely frustrated with his Mark's comment's. Specifically the comment that “not being able to provide is grounds for church discipline”. Where is the grace in that? What opportunities is the church developing to get people on their feet?
Thois is my thought. The issue is is how does God see us or approve us? By how we do it? If it's right? Or who we are and how we are gifted? Does He look at the heart?
Every family is sop different and have many different circumstances and God's grace is in the midst of that. And that is far more important then how it looks.
Wow. It was even hard for me to watch. Does this mean a stay at home mom is not “providing” for her family?
Why do we have issue with anyone criticizing men for staying at home, when feminists have been criticizing women for staying at home for the past 40+ years?
Coming in late and all, from incourage.
People have already addressed the exegesis, or lack of it, in the above sermon. Sadly, this isn't the only verse in which Bible scholarship is lacking. People who support this view seems to forget large parts of scripture in order to be able to maintain their position.
I would just like to add a few salient points to this discussion about gender roles, from the Bible. Ready?
A wife of noble character who can find? … She selects wool and flax and works with eager hands,… she provides food for her family… she considers a field and buys it; out of her earnings she plants a vineyard. She sets about her work vigorously: her arms are strong for her tasks. She sees that her trading is profitable and her lamp does not go out at night…her husband is respected at the city gate, where he takes his seat among the elders of the land. (He is respected because she works. hmmm) She makes linen garments and sells them, and supplies the merchants with sashes,… she watches over the affairs of her household… honor her for all that she has done and let her works bring her praise at the city gate.: (Proverbs 31 excerpted TNIV)
Lets, see. Trade, business, work, supplying merchants, planting vineyards, purchasing land, those all sound like nice quiet retiring things for a traditional stay at home house wife to be doing. Don't you think? She's definitely not mixing in the world of men and work ever. She just sits at home and spins. How else could people who actually read the Bible imagine that women should only stay at home and take care of children? Yeah, it seems they haven't read all of it after all.
Full disclosure- I'm a SAHM mom myself. I home school, I bake bread and cookies, I nurture, I even sew, and I like it. I'm also the CFO of a non-profit corporation that I helped found and still carry most of the administrative responsibility for as well as doing a lion's share of marketing and fund raising. Because I am quiet and retiring like that. No, I never sleep.
I totally agree Nicole! The first thing she said about providing for the need of his family really got me. What if the needs of the family are for him to take care of/teach the kids – the most important thing! To me, a man humble enough and willing to admit that his wife might better serve the family at work, while he works at home seems very godly to me. As long as he isn't idle, which it's hard to be raising kids!
Well, of course I couldn't agree with you more.
My husband and I were discussing the exact same thing! Thanks for mentioning it here.
There has been something bothering me for a couple of days now. Obviously, the primary problem of Driscoll's crappy exegesis has been addressed. What about the fact that both Driscoll and his wife agree that the kids would be damaged in some way if he were their primary caretaker? They both agree that he is not fit to raise his children. Isn't this a red flag of his own character? I know his wife goes on to say that women are specially designed for the task, but it seems troubling that he is not fit to father his children. We shouldn't make scripture compensate for our inadequacies/deficiencies. I would not have married my husband if I thought he wasn't capable of shaping our children in my absence.
@Al. Thank you for posting the link the the S@HD discussion board. It was enlightening to read that the response directly from Mars Hill Church. To those that are defending their position, their official position is more distorted (in my opinion) than what the video shows. Their leadership and doctrine is more legalistic than I thought.
Having read quite a deal about the Old Testament and current Jewish view of women, and see that God is quite “progressive”. Unfortunately, nothing I say or believe will change the direction of Mars Hill Church.
No, that's not a red flag. I would probably say the same thing about my 8-week-old twins being raised with me at home. My wife is far more patient than I am. I wish I were more patient with them and I try to be. But if one of us is going to be at our wit's end with them, it's always going to be me. By the same token, I'm a whole lot more patient than my wife at other things.
Joey-I don't think I could do twins!!! Babies are difficult for anyone, but twins are that much harder. My son in 2.5 yrs & my baby girl is 10 months. Eight weeks is such a hard stage, fun but hard. That is an amazing task. I am DEFINITELY the less patient parent. I know that my husband is a much better parent than I am, but God is working on me.
I just didn't like that the Driscoll's see his lack of parenting skills as God's design rather than possibly recognizing it as a personal flaw. I view my lack of parenting skills as a character flaw, and I constantly beg the Lord to be transformed. I don't think that he is excused just because he is a man.
Mark Driscoll is one of the biggest assholes out there, so if he said the sky was blue I'd have to verify it.
If you guys did a word study on this verse you would understand that in the original context, this verse is talking about money. Mark is just preaching what the bible says.
I do think there are situations where it is best for the father to stay at home and the mother to work (healthcare, income, illness,etc) but, from what you said, could your situation be more based on YOUR selfishness? You mentioned that you “hated” staying home with your children and that your husband, once the kids don't need him, wants to return to work. Even though it sounds like your husband does an amazing job with your children and loves caring for them, is he just placating you? I'm only asking you to consider these questions. Often if there is something we wives want (and we can be pretty vocal about what we want), our husbands will give in just to make us happy. Think Adam and Eve.
If working Nicole's job is selfish, I'd hate to see what sacrificial looks like.
I want to return to work once I'm not needed at home because at that point I won't have anything else to do. I'm not cut out to sit around playing the Wii all day. Too old.
Here's your context: I Timothy 5:3-8 (NASB). In every Bible I can find around the house, this is all one paragraph, so I assume it goes together. I'm no theologian, but after reading this passage, I think I can tell what it's about.
3 Honor widows who are widows indeed; 4 but if any widow has children or grandchildren, they must first learn to practice piety in regard to their own family and to make some return to their parents; for this is acceptable in the sight of God. 5 Now she who is a widow indeed and who has been left alone, has fixed her hope on God and continues in entreaties and prayers night and day.6 But she who gives herself to wanton pleasure is dead even while she lives.7 Prescribe these things as well, so that they may be above reproach. 8 But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
I don't care what Driscoll's opinion on social issues is. I don't go to his church. But I take the word very seriously, and I get concerned when I think it's being abused. Of course, he may be right and I may be wrong. If that's so, I'm sure the Spirit won't let me continue very long in such a grievous error.
There's nothing quite like calling somebody names in an anonymous internet post. Fantastic.
Man up and say it to his face, with your name on it, or else go away. Please.
I would be curious to know why it is wrong to criticize men for staying at home when the feminist movement has been criticizing women who stay at home for the past 40 years. Could you explain why one is wrong and the other right? Thank you.
I would be curious to know why it is wrong to criticize men for staying at home when the feminist movement has been criticizing women who stay at home for the past 40 years. Could you explain why one is wrong and the other right? Thank you.
God is a God of order. Anytime you go outside His order or pattern that works accordingly, you start to have issues. Try His Order, Man provides, Woman cares for her family/home and see awesome changes.
AMEN!
hmmm
I absolutely would LOVE to punch Mark Driscoll in the face for this! This is about all I have for right now. We almost got involved with a church until we found out they are in the Acts 29 network. I want NOTHING do with this piece of crap whatsoever, only to pound on him right now. Please, I am so sorry for my anger, forgive me. I am a Christian, but this guy brings out the WORST in me! If it were not for me, my daughter and child on the way would not have the care they deserve and my wife works her ASS OFF to bring in the major income for this family!!!! Forgive me, just saw this………….
I am a stay-at-home dad. I am raising an awesome little boy. You sir are speaking out of turn until you are in my shoes. Think for yourself before you completely lose the ability to. Mark seems more interested in having people worship him, not the God he pretends to represent.
As a stay at home father of 5 years, I applaud your comments.
Mark – Go educate yourself on this a little more than you apparently have before you open you uninformed mouth and start cherry picking passages from the bible in order to judge and spread hate. I bet Jesus wouldn’t agree with you – and many others certainly do not.
Hey Mark, while we are quoting the book of Timothy – let’s get to some of the good stuff, ok? Timothy also says that a woman should stay silent, should not teach, should not wear gold jewelry, and should not braid her hair. Good stuff, no? (/sarcasm)
The bible is full of wonderful examples of good fathers, including a father who sacrifices his sons to god, a father who allows his daughter to be raped by a mob of perverts, and a father who sleeps with his daughters while intoxicated. (/sarcasm)Cherry pick much Mark?
It’s sad. They would have me believe that I am less of a man, and/or try to convince me that I am going to hell because I am the (unpaid) primary parent/caregiver of my children while my wife supports our family financially. But, it would be infinitely more sad if I actually started to believe them.
Mark should be ashamed of himself for twisting this Scripture verse way out of context. This subject always gets my blood pressure up. Not because I think I’m going to hell but because I get so disappointed that other Christians take scripture so far out of context. The context of the verse in question isn’t even about taking care of children. The whole chapter surrounding the verse is about widows and elders. And not all translations even use the word “provide”. There are a handful that use the term “care for” or “take care of” instead of “provide”. I would say that SAHDs do a pretty good job of “taking care of” their own.
Sometimes I think Mark wants people to worship him instead of the man he claims to represent.
Father Harris. I believe THAT is out of context. Gender roles exist. God placed them there for a reason. The last thing I want to do as a man is allow my wife to battle traffic while I stay at home with the kids. I would never forgive myself for that.
“I fully believe that I can be a “Titus 2 woman” (Titus 2:3-5), one who is self-controlled, pure, busy at home, kind, and subject to my husband even if I have a nine-to-five job. And yes, it is an honor and responsibility to raise our chidren. It is my greatest honor. However, I do not believe even for a second that I was “built” be to be at home. And by the way, I think that I am an AMAZING mom.”
How can you possibly be when you are away from your kids for most of the day, 5 days a week? This is most of their lives!!